https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Summary: [r300g][glsl] Texture corruption in Xonotic with lightmaps Product: Mesa Version: git Platform: x86 (IA32) OS/Version: Linux (All) Status: NEW Severity: normal Priority: medium Component: Drivers/Gallium/r300 AssignedTo: dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org ReportedBy: xeros@irc.pl
Created an attachment (id=39504) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39504) Screenshot of lightmaps corruption
Testing procedure:
1. Download Xonotic (Nexuiz fork) from http://beta.xonotic.org/autobuild/Xonotic-20101017.zip (login: xonotic, pass: g-23) (could be newer build, too) 2. Unzip and run ./xonotic-linux-glx.sh 3. Enable GLSL in video menu 4. Enable "Use lightmaps" in effects menu 5. Connect to any server.
Lightmaps do texture corruption in r300g as seen on screenshots. Textures are rendered properly for example on Nvidia binary driver on Nvidia hardware. My graphic card: ATI Radeon 9600 256MB AGP (RV350).
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #1 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 05:45:21 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39505) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39505) Screenshot of lightmaps corruption #2 (ignore the error messages on top and white rectangle - it's fixed in tommorows build)
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #2 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 05:46:13 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39506) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39506) Screenshot of lightmaps corruption #3
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #3 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 14:26:06 PDT --- The problem has been discussed with Xonotic developers and does look like driver bug.
The problem is not on every map but on most of them and not on every texture. Example map red_V2: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000025-izMRie6h.jpg The same at a bit closer distance: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000026-JgQAIEys.jpg More closer (on the left textures ok, doors and right textures broken): http://picpaste.com/xonotic000027-j4riFPmN.jpg Almost ok (this texture corruption gets random whenever I move the mouse): http://picpaste.com/xonotic000028-ZEkd1DoG.jpg Another map - evilspace2 (http://beta.xonotic.org/autobuild-bsp/evilspace-full-cb6860159bdfb02f5bd5d76...): http://picpaste.com/xonotic000033-QRBL0lWT.jpg - textures on the lower floor are OK always. The same map - showing one texture ok (it's always OK) and others broken: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000037-h1vhAD9q.jpg Tried with suggested game option "r_shadow_deferred 1": http://picpaste.com/xonotic000023-rNkR29Tq.jpg Default map (glowplant) with lightmaps on glsl: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000062-nOfZlVRw.jpg The same place with lightmaps+deluxemapping: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000063-WqFIFjDk.jpg Once more red_V2 with lightmaps: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000066-ilX94A1H.jpg The same place with lightmaps and "r_glsl_deluxemapping 1", too: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000065-19VIO1a7.jpg The same place with lightmaps, "r_glsl_deluxemapping 1" and "r_fakelight 2": http://picpaste.com/xonotic000067-4VM3tJn9.jpg Map that is working ok (evilspace remix) with both lightmaps and deluxemapping: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000060-gfu8U61e.jpg Default map (glowplant) with "gl_picmip 1000": http://picpaste.com/xonotic000071-eg1KFicn.jpg The same after moving mouse a bit: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000072-pIgPU6Sd.jpg Like previous: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000073-6NFQ7D9B.jpg And one more: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000074-5qEkk2A7.jpg Glowplant map with default "mod_q3bsp_lightmapmergepower 4" option: http://picpaste.com/xonotic000079-p7ku82CV.jpg The same (not moved) with "mod_q3bsp_lightmapmergepower 3": http://picpaste.com/xonotic000080-7p7PgQ2U.jpg The same (not moved) with "mod_q3bsp_lightmapmergepower 2": http://picpaste.com/xonotic000081-1mYDfeKo.jpg The same (not moved) with "mod_q3bsp_lightmapmergepower 1": http://picpaste.com/xonotic000084-xQuzetgC.jpg The same (not moved) with "mod_q3bsp_lightmapmergepower 0": http://picpaste.com/xonotic000082-AwGA2wtr.jpg - almost OK but with a big cost of FPS drop and here a floor is still a problem but it's just like before - random, not only the floor.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #4 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 14:36:25 PDT --- And the problem is gone when I disable GLSL.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #5 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 15:54:38 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39521) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39521) dmesg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #6 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 15:55:07 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39522) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39522) glxinfo
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #7 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 15:56:30 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39523) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39523) Xorg.0.log
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #8 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-18 16:03:37 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39524) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39524) GLSL shader dump from the game
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #9 from Tom Stellard tstellar@gmail.com 2010-10-18 20:51:33 PDT --- Can you run the program with RADEON_DEBUG=fp,vp and post the output?
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #10 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:16:47 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39531) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39531) RADEON_DEBUG=fp,vp (STDERR log)
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #11 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:17:32 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39532) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39532) RADEON_DEBUG=fv,fp (STDOUT [game] log)
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #12 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:20:59 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39533) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39533) Screenshot during logs grab xonotic000001.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #13 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:21:53 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39534) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39534) Screenshot during logs grab xonotic000002.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #14 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:22:56 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39535) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39535) Screenshot during logs grab xonotic000003.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #15 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:23:51 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39536) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39536) Screenshot during logs grab xonotic000004.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #16 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:24:45 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39537) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39537) Screenshot during logs grab xonotic000005.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #17 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:25:41 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39538) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39538) Screenshot during logs grab xonotic000006.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #18 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:33:44 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39539) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39539) RADEON_DEBUG=fp,vp + game log 2>&1 merged
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #19 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:34:38 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39540) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39540) Screenshot during merged logs grab xonotic000008.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #20 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:35:22 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39541) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39541) Screenshot during merged logs grab xonotic000009.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #21 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:35:56 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39542) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39542) Screenshot during merged logs grab xonotic000010.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment #39532|RADEON_DEBUG=fv,fp (STDOUT |RADEON_DEBUG=fp,vp (STDOUT description|[game] log) |[game] log)
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #22 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:50:42 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39544) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39544) RADEON_DEBUG=fp,vp +game log lightmaps+deluxemapping
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #23 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:51:36 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39545) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39545) Screenshot during merged logs grab lightmap+deluxemapping xonotic000011.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #24 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:51:57 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39546) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39546) Screenshot during merged logs grab lightmap+deluxemapping xonotic000012.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #25 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-19 09:52:23 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39547) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39547) Screenshot during merged logs grab lightmap+deluxemapping xonotic000013.jpg
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #26 from Tom Stellard tstellar@gmail.com 2010-10-19 23:42:04 PDT --- Does running with RADEON_DEBUG=noopt fix the problem? If it does, can out post the output of RADEON_DEBUG=vp,fp,noopt? You can just post the stderr output, I don't need any more screenshots.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #27 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-20 12:54:15 PDT --- I don't see any difference with RADEON_DEBUG=noopt for both lightmap and lightmap+deluxemapping problem - both look like before. And sorry for that many screenshots - I thought that making screenshots during logs grab might help you to see what's the problem.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #28 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-20 12:57:52 PDT --- And I've tested it now with libgl1-mesa-dri_7.10.0~git20101019+gallium.974fb466-0ubuntu0tormod_i386.deb + the same version of glx and libglu packages from ubuntu xorg-edgers/radeon ppa, too - no change comparing to previous builds.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Marek Olšák maraeo@gmail.com changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |RESOLVED Resolution| |DUPLICATE
--- Comment #29 from Marek Olšák maraeo@gmail.com 2010-10-23 18:38:37 PDT --- It looks exactly like bug 28800 which we don't know how to fix.
*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 28800 ***
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #30 from Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com 2010-10-24 05:28:23 PDT --- (In reply to comment #29)
It looks exactly like bug 28800 which we don't know how to fix.
Having said that, the corruption I observe with bug 28800 was much reduced by upgrading my kernel from 2.6.34.x to 2.6.35.x. I haven't tried with 2.6.36.x yet.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment #39523|application/octet-stream |text/plain mime type| |
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment #39524|application/octet-stream |text/plain mime type| |
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment #39531|application/octet-stream |text/plain mime type| |
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment #39532|application/octet-stream |text/plain mime type| |
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment #39544|application/octet-stream |text/plain mime type| |
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment #39539|application/octet-stream |text/plain mime type| |
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #31 from Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com 2010-10-24 05:50:23 PDT --- (In reply to comment #29)
It looks exactly like bug 28800 which we don't know how to fix.
It's not *exactly* like bug 28800; I don't see anything like this in my dmesg log:
[13255.216618] radeon 0000:01:00.0: object_init failed for (1048576, 0x00000006) [13255.216631] [drm:radeon_gem_object_create] *ERROR* Failed to allocate GEM object (1048576, 6, 4096, -12)
Also, I see from the glxinfo output that you have S3TC texturing enabled, which presumably implies that you have the libtxc_dxtn.so library installed. So assuming that Xonotic doesn't need S3TC texturing for anything, does uninstalling this library affect the corruption in any way, please?
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #32 from Marek Olšák maraeo@gmail.com 2010-10-24 09:32:51 PDT --- I have noticed the corruption happens under extreme memory pressure (e.g. ETQW has corrupted textures with 64MB VRAM and the lowest graphics details, but if you have 256MB VRAM, you may see the corruption with the highest details only), so here is my theory.
In the kernel, there is function r100_copy_blit for copying buffers between RAM and VRAM using the 2D engine, and it's hooked up in the TTM. The function is used on r100 up to r500.
I believe switching between the 2D and 3D engine doesn't work as it should or we don't flush some cache or something.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #33 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-24 13:08:36 PDT --- Chris, yours suggestion was right! I've installed libtxc_dxtn.so some time ago as some apps (games) could use it. After removing this library the problem with rainbow colors/texture corruption in my case was resolved. The other workaround is to enable option 'Avoid loosy texture compression' in Xonotic menu which disables use of S3TC DDS textures.
And that what Marek has suggested about texture corruption with high detail it was right, too but it didn't look like on those screenshots. I've found this problem when I've run Xonotic with KDE KWin desktop effects enabled and without libtxc_dxtn.so - not only the big FPS drop but there were many different problems with textures (black textures, black and white textures, black and white noise, screen smoothing with no textures, etc.). Disabling KWin desktop effects + using lower quality textures + removing libtxc_dxtn.so (so it disables GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc and GL_S3_s3tc extensions) altogether does make the problem disappear.
And for texture formats that Xonotic needs - it uses JPG and TGA textures but DDS compressed textures, too and I'd like to use them as I could use better quality textures as I think it needs less RAM/VRAM(?) to handle them. And better quality textures compressed as DDS does not make any FPS drop. And most commercial games need S3TC.
So IMO, it does look like it's a duplicate of 28800.
Is there any chance to get this bug with libtxc_dxtn.so fixed to properly handle DDS compressed textures?
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl changed:
What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Summary|[r300g][glsl] Texture |[r300g][glsl][libtxc_dxtn] |corruption in Xonotic with |Texture corruption in |lightmaps |Xonotic with lightmaps
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #34 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-24 13:16:39 PDT --- I wonder why does S3TC with libtxc_dxtn.so in Xonotic works properly when lightmaps are disabled? I can use better quality DDS textures (without KWin desktop effects) just fine in Xonotic without lightmaps.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #35 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-24 13:50:49 PDT --- Created an attachment (id=39744) --> (https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=39744) RADEON_DEBUG=tex log
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #36 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-24 14:00:47 PDT --- So, the problematic textures are dxt1_rgb and/or dxt1_rgba.
I've done some more testing and I've saw that when I have 60 FPS the problem is gone with S3TC+lightmaps (all textures are OK, no matter what I'm looking at on the map) but when the FPS gets dropped to 30 FPS the problem arrives or when the problem arrives I get FPS drop to 30(?).
I wonder if the problem is with library or the S3TC handling by the driver itself. I wish I could enable S3TC on r300g without this library (as it could be done with r300c) to check if the textures sent to the card without software recoding library will have simmilar effect.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #37 from Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com 2010-10-24 15:27:17 PDT --- (In reply to comment #36)
Have you tested whether the corruption happens with r300c too? It does with WoW (although r300g has fewer other bugs).
Still, I'm glad you at least have a workaround available.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #38 from Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com 2010-10-24 15:31:05 PDT --- (In reply to comment #32)
Interesting theory - should this bug now include a title tag for r100-r500 DRM kernel modules?
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #39 from Marek Olšák maraeo@gmail.com 2010-10-24 15:38:54 PDT --- (In reply to comment #38)
Not necessary, it's just a theory. It would be interesting to rewrite that function to use the 3D engine on r300 and see if it fixes anything.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #40 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-24 22:16:30 PDT --- I've done some more testing in spectate mode (so I can go closer to walls, even fly through them) and my theory about 60->30 FPS drop does not work everytime as there are walls which can look at (very close look) where I have 60 FPS and the problem is still there but it might be something with lightning with lightmaps on just s3tc textures. The textures which (always) are not broken (probably not s3tc) when s3tc+lightmaps are enabled on the same map have working lightmaps effect.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #41 from Michel Dänzer michel@daenzer.net 2010-10-25 01:14:35 PDT --- (In reply to comment #39)
Not necessary, it's just a theory. It would be interesting to rewrite that function to use the 3D engine on r300 and see if it fixes anything.
A simpler test could be to use r200_copy_dma instead of r100_copy_blit for the .copy hook in radeon_asic.c. (On my mobile RV350 that seems to perform better anyway...)
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #42 from Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com 2010-10-25 13:42:16 PDT --- (In reply to comment #41)
I replaced r100_copy_blit with r200_copy_dma in both radeon_asic.copy and r300_asic_pcie.copy, but didn't notice any significant difference in the texture corruption. (This was with kernel 2.6.35.6.)
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #43 from Tomasz Czapiewski xeros@irc.pl 2010-10-25 14:14:02 PDT --- (In reply to comment #37)
Have you tested whether the corruption happens with r300c too? It does with WoW (although r300g has fewer other bugs).
On r300c enabling (in menu) lightmaps effect does not change anything as it could be enabled when GLSL is enabled but on r300c glxinfo reports only: OpenGL vendor string: DRI R300 Project OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI R300 (RV350 4150) 20090101 x86/MMX/SSE2 TCL DRI2 OpenGL version string: 1.5 Mesa 7.10-devel (without GLSL)
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #44 from Marek Olšák maraeo@gmail.com 2010-10-25 14:15:10 PDT --- (In reply to comment #42)
OK, thanks for testing.
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #45 from Michel Dänzer michel@daenzer.net 2010-10-26 00:31:06 PDT --- (In reply to comment #42)
Assuming that's with your AGP RV350, r300_asic.copy is used. Did you mean that instead of radeon_asic.copy?
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30960
--- Comment #46 from Chris Rankin rankincj@googlemail.com 2010-10-26 01:29:24 PDT --- (In reply to comment #45)
Assuming that's with your AGP RV350, r300_asic.copy is used. Did you mean that instead of radeon_asic.copy?
Yes, I meant r300_asic.copy really. (Sorry, typo...)
dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org